Acoustic guitar pickups

Dick Rees

Dick Rees

Curmudgeonly Scandihoovian
Jan 11, 2011
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St Paul, MN
Goofy on-board EQ and weak batteries aside, how do you deal with the variety of acoustic guitars with built-in pickups????



The problem I run into is how to make them sound like a guitar rather than just a ''rattly-box''. I am not usually in a position to take a lot of time with them but am loathe to throw my hands up in the air and give up.



So....how does one somehow rejigger things with EQ and processing to find some ''natural'' sound in the output?



Thanks
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

If just the pickup was enough for good sound, those Fishman auras would not be getting so popular. I think the best I have heard have used some significant post pickup processing. So in addition to eq, if the guitarist doesn't have his own tone shaping stuff on the signal I would want a dedicated reverb/delay unit for the channel along with the eq.



I think in general people have just gotten used to the pickup sound without remembering that it really isn't anything like the instrument actually sounds.



The pickup by itself can be okay in a busy (like country music or rock) mix but IMHO is lacking in a solo or small ensemble setting.



Many guitarists have never seemed to have learned how to play a mic, but a good option if possible is to leave the pickup for monitors and use the mic out front.



Unfortunately if all you have is the pickup into DI into the channel, all you can really do is change the frequencies that suck the most, without getting rid of them.
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Dick,



I own Takamine and Taylor acoustics. Both are acoustic / electric. I've never been pleased with the output of the Tak but well pleased with the Taylor expression system. The Tak has a pickup in the bridge, making it sound more ''banjo like''. Regardless of my attempts to shape it into something, my results have been less than stellar. It is what it is. The Taylor, on the other hand, won me over years ago and has served me well in live situations with a DI since I like to move while performing. Sitting, I'll utilize an SD condenser (SM81 or Oktava) off the neck/body position and a DI. Seems to be the combination I've been most satisfied with. I'm not one for alot of compression on the instrument, and if used, typically it's light.



I also record, with one favored mic positioning over my right shoulder 2 - 3' facing the bridge/soundhole to pick up the strum and pick ''click'' and another in front of the instrument just behind and below the soundhole to pick up the body. Generally I'll use either an Oktava MK012, or T9000, and an SM81, with a direct input on a third channel.



Steve
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Dick,

What a crapshoot. I've heard cheap guitars with the Fishman clamp-on humbucker sound great, at the same time, a Martin or a Taylor sound like a wet shoebox. I have a friend with a high-end Taylor in maple that sounds terrible in the winter, and merely miserable in the summer. I attribute some of that to the ''goofy on-board EQ''...



Mostly, I too try to have an eq available as an insert on the channel. For the most part (and there are as many exceptions as there are guitars) I find most of the fundamental string frequencies way overpowering the harmonics - and I find myself cutting a-220 for an octave or octave and a half to let some of the higher harmonics through - maybe a presence boost too - One Martin OM I work with sounds great unplugged but gave me fits to get it sounding anything close to right - no bottom end at all - just a hollow, muddy mid mix. Added a bunch of a-220 down, sharply cut some mids above that and added some highs >1K to let some harmonics through.



I can get them somewhat acceptable, let's say, not objectionable, but never great. The body ring and resonance is lost too many times even with good factory pickup systems. Add an internal condenser mic, and you end up with a howling good time on a loud band. The pickups are popular because they are convenient, not because they sound great.



The best I've heard were a Taylor w/bridge pickup and internal condenser, and a Martin D28 w/ K&K Trinity.



frank
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

In the end I agree with the ''it is what it is'' assessment. I'm just looking for any last-ditch method of taming the metallic ''klang'' from the cheapies. I've tried sweeping the channel EQ's but as I said at first, there's never any time available for a thorough work-over.



Time to go to GC and play with a few cheap guitars, I guess.



Thanks for the sympathy if nothing else.
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Dick Rees wrote on Wed said:
In the end I agree with the ''it is what it is'' assessment. I'm just looking for any last-ditch method of taming the metallic ''klang'' from the cheapies. I've tried sweeping the channel EQ's but as I said at first, there's never any time available for a thorough work-over.



Time to go to GC and play with a few cheap guitars, I guess.



Thanks for the sympathy if nothing else.
Click to expand...



I've also found that the cheaper the guitar, the better the DI needs to be
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Well let us know if you find it, but I still think it is due to the amount of string sound vs body sound when using the undersaddle.



Even if you can't get rid of it, you may be able to hide some of it in the mix.



My really favorite way to get the body for someone who is going to move around is a Schertler contact mic. But in the world of cheap guitars it doesn't help to suggest a pickup that costs as much as the guitar.
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Yep, sympathy is about all you can get.



Some styles of music are more forgiving - if I run into an act with a lot of instrumentation, I can usually blend the acoustic back a bit and EQ it to the point where you're mostly perceiving just the top end (kind of like the Tom Petty acoustic thing). This only works with a fairly dense mix where the acoustic is not a featured instrument.



Sometimes you end up with a situation where you're dealt a turd that you just can't polish. Think of it as a way of helping you to appreciate the few guitarists who come through who actually have a great sounding acoustic.



GIGO holds true here.
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Jay Barracato wrote on Wed said:
My really favorite way to get the body for someone who is going to move around is a Schertler contact mic.
Click to expand...



I did pick up a Fishman stick-on pickup late last year but it was late in the season and I only got to try it on a mandolin to replace the crappy built-in pickup. It worked passably. I'd forgotten that I had it. I'll try a few different placements on one of my old guitars and see if I can find any sweet spots for future reference.
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

My cousin uses the Fishman on a uke. I would start on the lower bout about 2 inches behind and 2 inches below the corner of the bridge.



There is information about the placement on the schertler website.



I have heard that you can also place the mic on the back of the instrument, but I have never tried that.
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Often when mixing, I could guess if the acoustic was a Taylor, Martin, or Larrivee (my favorite), or other. If it just sucked no matter what, it was usually a Tak.



The best pickup I've heard was the KK Trinity system, with internal condenser along with pickup, 2 channels into the console. After a couple hours in the studio, the guitarist and I found the perfect angle/distance for the mic, and used that for the house, pickup for mons.



To answer your question on how to make a cheap guitar with cheap pickups sound good - I don't know other than tweaking the EQ to make it 'less bad' and burying it in the mix where possible.
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

The problem with doing very much processing to a guitar is the guitarist is used to the way he or she sounds and changing it very much, even for the better throws them off.



A few years back when I first got a Driverack PA I had the sub synth turned on with a solo guitar opener. Can you guess what ensued?
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Dick Rees wrote on Wed said:
In the end I agree with the ''it is what it is'' assessment. I'm just looking for any last-ditch method of taming the metallic ''klang'' from the cheapies. I've tried sweeping the channel EQ's but as I said at first, there's never any time available for a thorough work-over.



Time to go to GC and play with a few cheap guitars, I guess.



Thanks for the sympathy if nothing else.
Click to expand...

Many piezo pickups will have a narrow resonant peak up fairly high, like 6-8K, then roll off rapidly.

To keep them from sounding like somebody playing a garden rake, a very narrow notch must be pulled, then a high shelf boost to bring back in some ''air''.

Coupled with the usual low end boom frequency (port tuning) to get rid of, a high pass to prevent ultra low thump, and some other gnarly mid band peak (or dip), it often can be difficult to get a decent sound with less than four bands of full parametric and a HP.



I found that out the first time mixing an acoustic opener on the old Clair flip top console, even though it had 3 fully parametric channels, had to choose between getting rid of the low boom or the gnarly mid...



Or you get someone like Leo Kottke, plug his guitar in to a Countryman type 85 to a flat system and it sounds perfect...
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Steve Tarak wrote on Wed said:
Dick,



I own Takamine and Taylor acoustics. Both are acoustic / electric. I've never been pleased with the output of the Tak but well pleased with the Taylor expression system. The Tak has a pickup in the bridge, making it sound more ''banjo like''. Regardless of my attempts to shape it into something, my results have been less than stellar. It is what it is. The Taylor, on the other hand, won me over years ago and has served me well in live situations with a DI since I like to move while performing. Sitting, I'll utilize an SD condenser (SM81 or Oktava) off the neck/body position and a DI. Seems to be the combination I've been most satisfied with. I'm not one for alot of compression on the instrument, and if used, typically it's light.



I also record, with one favored mic positioning over my right shoulder 2 - 3' facing the bridge/soundhole to pick up the strum and pick ''click'' and another in front of the instrument just behind and below the soundhole to pick up the body. Generally I'll use either an Oktava MK012, or T9000, and an SM81, with a direct input on a third channel.



Steve
Click to expand...



+1 on the Taylor. Just worked with a guy this weekend who had one and it was definitely the best that I've heard in a long time - it sounded great even going through a sub par house system.



Beyond that I've never really found one way to EQ an acoustic. Just listen and play around a bit. There are so many variables such as the console, the guitar, the eq on the guitar, the DI, whatever... that there never will be one single way either. Some are super boomy, some are super tinny, you just never know.

 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Art Welter wrote on Wed said:
Dick Rees wrote on Wed said:
In the end I agree with the ''it is what it is'' assessment. I'm just looking for any last-ditch method of taming the metallic ''klang'' from the cheapies. I've tried sweeping the channel EQ's but as I said at first, there's never any time available for a thorough work-over.



Time to go to GC and play with a few cheap guitars, I guess.



Thanks for the sympathy if nothing else.
Click to expand...

Many piezo pickups will have a narrow resonant peak up fairly high, like 6-8K, then roll off rapidly.

To keep them from sounding like somebody playing a garden rake, a very narrow notch must be pulled, then a high shelf boost to bring back in some ''air''.

Coupled with the usual low end boom frequency (port tuning) to get rid of, a high pass to prevent ultra low thump, and some other gnarly mid band peak (or dip), it often can be difficult to get a decent sound with less than four bands of full parametric and a HP.



I found that out the first time mixing an acoustic opener on the old Clair flip top console, even though it had 3 fully parametric channels, had to choose between getting rid of the low boom or the gnarly mid...



Or you get someone like Leo Kottke, plug his guitar in to a Countryman type 85 to a flat system and it sounds perfect...
Click to expand...





Thanks, Art....



It helps a lot to know where to start looking. I guess the first thing to do is to get an insertable parametric device with an ample amount of filters. Once I can establish some kind of base line or ''shotgun'' solution I'll be better prepared for festival season.



I actually have a few Behringer FBX1100 units kicking around. Twelve filters/channel and around 10 memories. I'll haul one out and program in a few solutions as I find them. Should make for a quick and easy way to ''open the 'chute'' if I have to.



If I come up with anything usable I'll post it back.



DR



PS



I've heard Leo a lot, especially in the old days, but never been on the board when he was performing. I did, however, have the great pleasure of listening to John Renbourn play. You're right. At that level they plug in, you turn it up....then sit back and listen to the golden flow.

 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Steve Tarak wrote on Wed said:
Dick,



I own Takamine and Taylor acoustics. Both are acoustic / electric. I've never been pleased with the output of the Tak but well pleased with the Taylor expression system. The Tak has a pickup in the bridge, making it sound more ''banjo like''.
Click to expand...



+1



I often wonder if those who buy guitars to perform live ever consider the sound of the pickup when they're demoing guitars in the shop. Some of the Takamine's I've worked with sound good from 3 feet away, but not so good when through the PA.
 
Re: Acoustic guitar pickups

Steve Blaski wrote on Wed said:
Steve Tarak wrote on Wed said:
Dick,



I own Takamine and Taylor acoustics. Both are acoustic / electric. I've never been pleased with the output of the Tak but well pleased with the Taylor expression system. The Tak has a pickup in the bridge, making it sound more ''banjo like''.
Click to expand...



+1



I often wonder if those who buy guitars to perform live ever consider the sound of the pickup when they're demoing guitars in the shop. Some of the Takamine's I've worked with sound good from 3 feet away, but not so good when through the PA.
Click to expand...



Since I'm not providing instruments for the musicians it really doesn't matter which one has the best pickup built in. What I'm looking for is the best way to dilute the crap and come up with something even marginally usable.



Two apparent solutions are:



1. Insertable DPEQ, possibly with presets for common problems.



2. Alternative pickup/mic to be quickly mounted for use. I have some AT Pro7a's that I usually use for violins/fiddles that may suffice just thrown into the guitar. The only thing I'd have to fabricate would be some kind of cover for the cord so as to keep it conveniently out of the way of the player. I've seen the cord run right along the fingerboard to keep it out of the way. I'll be looking for some kind of tube or the equivalent to keep it stiff and straight. A bit of transducer putty ought to hold it in place with no damage to the instrument.



The advantage to adding my own transducer/mic is that the player can no longer change settings once they've started playing. It's a rare player who doesn't fiddle with the sliders on these guitars between tunes.....or during.
 
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